In Response to the Gospel of Fwiffo
Just to demonstrate how ignorant Fwiffo's commentary is, I posted one of his comments (his "explanation" of Deut.21:10-14 - yes, a male Fundie, justifying rape.... Watch him do cartwheels!) at another board I frequent. And, boy howdy, were the responses fun.
1. "Cerise = after that, you may go to her and she shall be your wife.
Not, you shall ask her if she wants to be your wife and allow her the chance to say no.
No choice, no consent = rape. No matter what time period you are in, no matter what your status, no matter what your religion. No choice = no consent."
2. "MM = I find it interesting the word "humbled" is also used in place of "rape" in Deuteronomy (KJV) as well as being used in this passage.
Deuteronomy 22:24
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
Deuteronomy 22:29
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
The above two passages are part of the notorious rape laws."
3. "Quote: Cerise = after that, you may go to her and she shall be your wife.
Not, you shall ask her if she wants to be your wife and allow her the chance to say no.
No choice, no consent = rape. No matter what time period you are in, no matter what your status, no matter what your religion. No choice = no consent
SaH: Most definitely, this particular passage is condoning forced "marriage", i.e. rape. It basically says, giver her a chance to mourne a short while, then rape her. Keep her around and continue to rape her as long as it pleases you. Toss her to the wind at your own whim.
Oh, but don't sell her, that would be immoral."
4. Quote: SaH = It basically says, giver her a chance to mourne a short while, then rape her. Keep her around and continue to rape her as long as it pleases you. Toss her to the wind at your own whim.
Oh, but don't sell her, that would be immoral.
MM: Right. Unfortunately, that last part about not selling her might "sound" kinder, it actually isn't.
The woman would be a stranger in this land. Likely young, as women married young, so a virgin girl would have been early teens. She would be an orphan among people who had orphaned her by murdering her parents, extended family and friends. Therefore, she would have had no family to take her in once she was turned out or support her in any way. Once taken as a "wife" she would no longer have the one thing that would grant her the "security" of a home and potential for creating children- her virginity. Once she was not a virgin, she would be unlikely to be considered as a wife by anyone else. As a foreigner among people who deemed her race to be worty of genocide, she is likely a second class citizen at best. I doubt that she would have been entitled to alimony or any type of financial support, even if they did those things back then. "Selling" her would have at least put her in a household with a roof over her head and perhaps provided the opportunity to raise a family as someone else's wife or concubine. Remember, having children, more specifically sons, was the best way a woman could be assured of being taken care of in old age or in the event her husband died. Also, having a husband, even if taken she was taken against her will, would have provided her with an extended in-law family to care for her in the event of her husband's death.
Being "set free" after being taken as a wife, would have left her with less than nothing. Likely the sad outcome for a woman-child in this situaiton would have been street begging, prostitution or stealing."
Notice how all of these people (all ex-Christians) have a better grasp of the REALITY of that verse than "compassionate conservative" Fwiffo.
1. "Cerise = after that, you may go to her and she shall be your wife.
Not, you shall ask her if she wants to be your wife and allow her the chance to say no.
No choice, no consent = rape. No matter what time period you are in, no matter what your status, no matter what your religion. No choice = no consent."
2. "MM = I find it interesting the word "humbled" is also used in place of "rape" in Deuteronomy (KJV) as well as being used in this passage.
Deuteronomy 22:24
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
Deuteronomy 22:29
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
The above two passages are part of the notorious rape laws."
3. "Quote: Cerise = after that, you may go to her and she shall be your wife.
Not, you shall ask her if she wants to be your wife and allow her the chance to say no.
No choice, no consent = rape. No matter what time period you are in, no matter what your status, no matter what your religion. No choice = no consent
SaH: Most definitely, this particular passage is condoning forced "marriage", i.e. rape. It basically says, giver her a chance to mourne a short while, then rape her. Keep her around and continue to rape her as long as it pleases you. Toss her to the wind at your own whim.
Oh, but don't sell her, that would be immoral."
4. Quote: SaH = It basically says, giver her a chance to mourne a short while, then rape her. Keep her around and continue to rape her as long as it pleases you. Toss her to the wind at your own whim.
Oh, but don't sell her, that would be immoral.
MM: Right. Unfortunately, that last part about not selling her might "sound" kinder, it actually isn't.
The woman would be a stranger in this land. Likely young, as women married young, so a virgin girl would have been early teens. She would be an orphan among people who had orphaned her by murdering her parents, extended family and friends. Therefore, she would have had no family to take her in once she was turned out or support her in any way. Once taken as a "wife" she would no longer have the one thing that would grant her the "security" of a home and potential for creating children- her virginity. Once she was not a virgin, she would be unlikely to be considered as a wife by anyone else. As a foreigner among people who deemed her race to be worty of genocide, she is likely a second class citizen at best. I doubt that she would have been entitled to alimony or any type of financial support, even if they did those things back then. "Selling" her would have at least put her in a household with a roof over her head and perhaps provided the opportunity to raise a family as someone else's wife or concubine. Remember, having children, more specifically sons, was the best way a woman could be assured of being taken care of in old age or in the event her husband died. Also, having a husband, even if taken she was taken against her will, would have provided her with an extended in-law family to care for her in the event of her husband's death.
Being "set free" after being taken as a wife, would have left her with less than nothing. Likely the sad outcome for a woman-child in this situaiton would have been street begging, prostitution or stealing."
Notice how all of these people (all ex-Christians) have a better grasp of the REALITY of that verse than "compassionate conservative" Fwiffo.
posted by Grace | 12:58 AM
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